HEX HOUSE
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Marnie Vinge [00:00:04]:
I'm Marnie Vinge and this is Eerie Okie. Join me and my friends as we explore the darker side of the Sooner State. So welcome to Eerie Okie. This is our episode about the Hex House of Tulsa. And I've got Johnetta Rhodes here with me. She's a friend of mine that I made through NaNoWriMo. And tell us a little bit about yourself.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:00:41]:
Well, as you said, we met through NaNoWriMo, which I am lead the local Moore, Norman NaNoWriMo. So if you want to come out and write with us, totally join. We're always about it. I also, I do poetry. I'm a painting artist. Like, I work mostly with acrylics. I am also working on a podcast and a book. Currently, both are kind of still in the works.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:01:05]:
So not totally titled yet, but, you know, just kind of all around. I just. I basically keep fucking busy, like, all the time.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:11]:
So, yes, you are probably one of the busiest people I know, but you get a lot done. Like, you're not well.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:01:16]:
Thank you. I feel like just one of those.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:18]:
People that's always like, oh, I'm so busy, but they don't get anything done, you know?
Johnetta Rhodes [00:01:21]:
Like, it just. They say they're busy and they're not really important. Like, at least I'm. At least I'm getting done.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:26]:
Yeah, exactly. You're getting. You're getting a lot of done. Yeah. So. So I have Johnetta on today to talk with me about the Hex House, which. Excuse me, I did not even know this, but there's a haunted attraction in Tulsa. Like, when I say haunted, I mean, like Halloween time, like, people dress up in costumes and jump out and scare you type of situation.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:52]:
Called the Hex House.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:01:53]:
Really?
Marnie Vinge [00:01:54]:
So when you Google the Hex House Tulsa, this haunted attraction pops up.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:00]:
And now, is it. Is it, like, based on loose stuff?
Marnie Vinge [00:02:03]:
Okay, loosely based on it. It's the name they got from it. And. But mainly it's just. I think it's more of a. Just a haunted house type attraction. Okay, like what we have here.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:15]:
Right, right. Like the Bricktown Brewery.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:18]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:18]:
Haunted house. Is that even still open?
Marnie Vinge [00:02:20]:
Oh, what was that? I don't know. I remember when I was a kid that was like, everybody was scared to death of that thing. Like, everybody wanted to go, but if you were too young, you couldn't get in. And like, no, because they.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:32]:
They make it pretty horrific. Like, apparently it's always in the dark. I don't know. It has been like. I just remember waiting in line to do it, and I was like, fuck this. I'm not waiting in this goddamn line with all these yuppie assholes. Like, so, you know, I bounced because.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:44]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:46]:
My attention span is like this big.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:47]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:48]:
You know, tiny. So whatever. But no, I bet it's cool.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:52]:
I bet. Yeah. Yeah. We should do a follow up after we talk about this in October. We could go to it. You go to the Hex House and give it a review.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:02:59]:
I'm about that, but okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:00]:
So the Hex House is a local Tulsa legend. The house no longer stands at 10 East 21st in Tulsa. It was torn down, I think, in 1975. I read. Yeah, exactly. Like, let's tear it down and put a parking lot in the American way. Like, which is what. Exactly what they did.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:21]:
They put a parking lot there. Yeah. But you can still see. You can still see the steps of the Hex House.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:03:27]:
They, like, left them.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:28]:
The steps are still there. Yes. So, yeah, we. We could go up to Tulsa and see the steps if we wanted to.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:03:33]:
I'm about that.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:34]:
I'm about it, too. So the story broke in 1944, and it was covered nationally. It was sensational. Like, this was. This was one of those stories that it was a scandal. Like, it was. Everybody was talking about it.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:03:49]:
Witchcraft in the 40s. I imagine it was a huge fucking scandal.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:53]:
Witchcraft and lesbian sex slavery in the 40s.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:03:57]:
Oh, damn.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:57]:
Yeah, yeah. We're talking, everybody. This is in across how. You know, this was a big deal. So the press dubbed the residents of Miss Carol Ann Smith the Hex House of Tulsa, and they called her the she Svengali of Tulsa.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:04:14]:
Oh.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:15]:
So I did not know who Svengali was. I had heard that term, but I didn't know who it was. So for anybody else who does not know who Svengali is, he was a character from a George du Maurier novel called Trilby. And Svengali dominated, seduced and exploited the main character, Trilby, a young Irish girl, in order to make her famous scene singer. So.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:04:39]:
So very R. Kelly.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:40]:
Yes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:04:40]:
Okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:41]:
R. Kelly. Like this. This lady is ahead of her time.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:04:45]:
At least she was condemned, probably. We're hoping. Yes.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:49]:
Oh, wait until we get there. Wait until we get there.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:04:51]:
Okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:52]:
Okay. So the house. Actually, first of all, let's talk about what this lady looks like.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:04:58]:
Okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:58]:
Like, you saw the picture of her.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:05:00]:
Yes, I did.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:01]:
She looked like a nice society lady.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:05:05]:
She really did. Like, I mean, she looked like her grandma that you would run into at, like, an upper class church.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:12]:
Absolutely.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:05:13]:
You know, or on. Yeah. On a Sunday at Brunch or tea or something. Like, she looked like. Like that, you know, that stereotypical. You think in your mind's eye, the lady, you know, like a lady. She looked like a fucking lady. And here she is being a fucking looney Tune and just like, got people.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:29]:
In her basement like, oh, my God. Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:05:32]:
Oh, yeah. No, yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:34]:
She.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:05:35]:
I not somebody you would expect to keep human slaves. Definitely.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:39]:
Because sometimes you can look at somebody and you're like, okay, if, like, I.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:05:44]:
Hate to be judgmental like that, but. No, totally. I get what you mean.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:47]:
It's sort of like I heard this comedian one time talking about Charles Manson and he said that at least Charles Manson had the decency to look crazy. And I kind of think that some serial killers and some cult leaders and some, you know, people who get like.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:04]:
You look at Ed Gein and Ed Gein looked crazy. I mean, he looks like a aloon.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:09]:
I mean, and he like, he kind of look at. Have you seen that new documentary the Jinx with about.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:14]:
No.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:15]:
Durst.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:15]:
No.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:16]:
That guy has the deadest eyes I've ever seen in my life. Like, you look into his eyes and there is nothing.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:21]:
Robert Durst, which was. Which one was he?
Marnie Vinge [00:06:24]:
He had a wife in the 70s that disappeared.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:27]:
Oh, oh, yes.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:28]:
Yeah. In like high society New York.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:30]:
Yes, yes, yes.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:32]:
Okay, so he look, he. He looks like. I like, I like to call him dead. I. Durst, I think.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:39]:
Didn't Ryan Gosling do a movie about him? Yes. And oh my God, that was terrifying. Like, I remember. I remember that. And yes, I remember looking him up afterwards and dead eyes.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:51]:
Dead, like dead eyes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:06:53]:
Terrifying. Nothing there.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:54]:
Yeah, but this lady, she, Carol Ann Smith, looks like you would want to hang out with her.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:01]:
Like, she looks normal. I would hang out with her. Anyway, let's. Let's be real, like, because she's a crazy.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:06]:
Want to.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:06]:
She's a crazy lesbian witch. And I'm like, my aesthetic, let's. Let's chill. I mean, I'm not a lesbian, but everything else. But, like, I'm really good friends with a lot of lesbians and I like them. So. Hey, heck yeah, let's hang. You know, you do curses, you hypnotize people.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:20]:
Like, this is goals.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:21]:
Yeah. Really, like, let's be honest. So the home that she lived in was a, according to the press, a stately ivy covered duplex. It was a beautiful home. Like, it had a balcony.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:34]:
Was it like Victorian looking?
Marnie Vinge [00:07:36]:
Kind of.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:36]:
Did they have Pinterest of it?
Marnie Vinge [00:07:37]:
Yes, there are some pictures of it.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:39]:
I'll have to look it up.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:40]:
Yes. And it had a fireplace in her bedroom and the balcony.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:07:45]:
I did see the pictures. It was a really nice home. Yes.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:48]:
Okay. And the balcony overlooked the backyard, which she stood on that balcony when she was overseeing the burial of her dogs, which we'll get. We'll get into that. She liked to bury things at midnight, which.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:08:02]:
For goals, right?
Marnie Vinge [00:08:04]:
Yeah, she liked to bury things at midnight. And that was kind of a. A thing.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:08:11]:
A very. A very messed up thing in the 40s for a lot of people. Like.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:15]:
Oh, yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:08:16]:
I mean, I don't think that's really acceptable now, let alone then. But yeah. Okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:22]:
So inside the home, unbeknownst to anybody passing by, anybody looking in from the outside, she was keeping two women, Virginia Evans, 31, and Wiletta Horner, 30. She was keeping them as slaves.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:08:38]:
When did she acquire them?
Marnie Vinge [00:08:40]:
I believe that they were kept there for seven years. I want to say. Don't quote me on that, you. You guys, because I saw that number somewhere and I cannot find it again. But I think they were there for quite some time.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:08:52]:
And it was a.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:53]:
It's.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:08:53]:
It's not like something that we have a lot of evidence on. Like, there's not a lot of books written about it.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:58]:
No, there's not. Yeah. And especially after any of her life after this, there is not a whole lot of information on that. But.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:09:06]:
Okay, so. But you know, people in their 30s, I mean, even if they were kept for seven years, I mean, young 20s, that. That is still impressionable. Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, it is like, I. I did recently just watch the R. Kelly documentary. Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:09:23]:
Surviving R. Kelly, which is fabulous. If no one has watched it and it is available to you watch it.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:28]:
It is. What's it on?
Johnetta Rhodes [00:09:30]:
Well, right now it was on Lifetime. I watched it on. On Demand through Lifetime. But it is. It is heartbreaking.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:36]:
It is. Oh, it's a head.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:09:39]:
And it's sick at how. How easily he gets away with it.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:42]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:09:42]:
We'll leave it at that. Because we all know, everyone knows that R. Kelly is a freak and that he's got his weird sex cult and that, like, you know, he uses music to lure girls in, which.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:52]:
Golly. Yeah. Yes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:09:55]:
And, you know, keeps them as slaves. And like, listening to the survivors talk about, like, the stuff that they experienced with him, man, it's heavy. I mean, it's heavy.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:07]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:10:08]:
I was like, I. I knew what happened, but it was still. It was still very hard. Watch. But like that. That's kind of like this, though. And a few of them were in their 30s, whenever he indoctrinated them, I guess you could say, and brainwashed them and stuff. And they were talking about how it's, it's not just that he seeks out young women, I mean, because he does definitely have a preference for young women, but he seeks out weak women, weak mind, vulnerable.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:10:37]:
And that's the like, that's like their own words paraphrasing. But this was one of them. And she said, you know, he finds that weakness and it's like he latches on to it and he sees something lacking in you and he like shows you this vulnerability, which I could very much see someone who looks like a grandma, who is very, how would you say, like nice, polite looking and elderly woman showing a vulnerability to younger women to kind of seduce them with this whole idea that. Yeah, you know, I'm human too. I have these feelings too. Like, it's almost like you lure them with a false sense of understanding and. Understanding.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:15]:
Yes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:11:15]:
And you know, you have this whole idea that that's the way that they get them in and then the mask comes off and that's kind of what they were talking about. Like his, one of his ladies was saying that, you know, you have R. Kelly and then you have Robert. And R. Kelly is a fun, great guy. Robert is the devil.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:35]:
Wow.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:11:35]:
And I was like, damn. So damn, baby. Right? Like, damn, baby.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:42]:
That's cold.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:11:42]:
Right? Yeah, but, but true. And I have to wonder, you know, in a lot of these situations where you see people being kept as slaves because, you know, a lot of people think, oh, I could never give up my freedom like most normal people. I mean, I'm sure there might be some, some people out there who are like, oh yeah, I could easily do that. Like, I could easily fall into servitude. I am not one of those people. No, definitely not. But, but, you know, I mean, you find a lot of times you find even educated people and it's, it's almost, it's, it's frightening.
Marnie Vinge [00:12:15]:
Yeah. It's like how the people that you see that fall into cults are not, they're not these crazy people that.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:12:23]:
No, they're just like us.
Marnie Vinge [00:12:25]:
They're just like us. They. A weakness was exploited and they wind up in this situation that is out of control, out of their hands. And, and I think that's kind of what happened to these two girls. Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:12:39]:
I would love, I would love to read more about their lives. Post her.
Marnie Vinge [00:12:43]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:12:44]:
Because I, I feel like it's almost a travesty that we don't have a Lot of information post this, you know, sensationalized story. It just kind of got buried. I mean, now, nowadays, if this were to happen nowadays, we would have access.
Marnie Vinge [00:12:56]:
To so much information.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:12:58]:
So much information, because people would probably keep it alive and keep it fresh and, you know, because people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, like us, which is awesome.
Marnie Vinge [00:13:08]:
Well, and speaking of that, there. The Tulsa World reported an additional discovery after the raid. There was a raid made on her home. And the reason for the raid. It doesn't have to do with the fact that there are these two girls being held captive. Doesn't have to do with.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:13:23]:
Forget that shit.
Marnie Vinge [00:13:24]:
Forget that. It doesn't have to do with that. It doesn't have to do with the midnight burials that were going on. Doesn't have to do with any of that. You want to know how she got caught? Her war ration book.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:13:37]:
What?
Marnie Vinge [00:13:38]:
During World War II, there were these ration books that you would get, right, that had, like, the stamps, and you could go. And you could turn in a stamp for a can of whatever or for sugar or for this or that. Okay? So Carol Ann had. Should have had one ration book. She had eight.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:13:55]:
What the How.
Marnie Vinge [00:13:57]:
And she. Okay, so she had this bulldog named Bon Bon, and she used Bon Bon's name to get an additional ration book. And she used all these other fake names, too. But it was the one that was Bonnie, her bulldog, that got her caught.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:14:14]:
Well, you shouldn't have got that bulldog a ration book. I mean, come on.
Marnie Vinge [00:14:19]:
So she. There was an elementary school that was real close to where she lived, Lee Elementary School. And that was where she got her ration books. And the children at the school eventually ratted her out because people came. They. The feds or the authorities came asking questions about the eight ration books or whatever. And the kids are like, no, there's just one lady like. And it was because of the children that they found out, hey, this lady's got eight ration books and what little stitches.
Marnie Vinge [00:14:48]:
Oh, my God. And this is a Federal Crown Prime. Like, this is so bad. This is really bad.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:14:55]:
We don't care about those girls that you're keeping.
Marnie Vinge [00:14:57]:
Oh, they didn't even know about.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:14:59]:
Oh, they didn't know yet. Okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:00]:
No, no, they found them when they did the raid. Oh, so when they did the raid, they. Let's see, what all did they find? They found during the inventory that the authorities made, it was found that Smith had enough makeup, perfume, and other beauty products to, quote, stock a drugstore while the girls were kept in Rags. Sleeping on orange crates in the basement and deprived of any of the trappings of modern life.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:15:30]:
Good Lord.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:31]:
And they also found that she had. Let me see, she had a $250 silverware set, which was a big deal. Oh, yeah. A Packard car, 46 pairs of shoes, 18 pairs of gloves, 26 hats, and lots and lots of makeup.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:15:50]:
So she was ballin'.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:52]:
She was ballin'. And here's the thing. Like this was during World War II. This was not a time when a lot of people were ballin' and. Oh, shit. You're probably wondering how this lady had all this money. Well, the way that she was able to live such a lavish lifestyle was because she liked to take out insurance policies. The people close to her.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:16:13]:
So she was a black widow.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:14]:
Yes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:16:15]:
Damn.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:16]:
Her husband. Her husband committed suicide. He shot himself in the head.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:16:20]:
Are they sure?
Marnie Vinge [00:16:21]:
Well, some people speculate that she cursed him and because of her witchcraft she was able to get him to kill himself. And she got the money. So she got money from him. She got money from many members of her family. And she even took out an insurance policy on her maid who wound up walking into traffic.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:16:42]:
Holy shit.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:43]:
And so people thought maybe she hexed her because one of the things.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:16:46]:
And you can't prove a hex, like you can't prove witchcraft. I mean, I guess in the 40s maybe it was easier to prove witchcraft and like, whatever, but. Damn.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:57]:
One of the things that the girls said when they were rescued was that she had hypnotized and mesmerized them and that they had been part of this purification ritual. And during that they were promised a reward, like if they were good or whatever. Like if they went through this process, they would be given a reward, but they never told what that reward was. And one of the girls, one of the girls said that the relationship she had with Carol Ann was a mother daughter type relationship.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:17:32]:
Yeah, cuz I sleep with my mother too.
Marnie Vinge [00:17:34]:
Exactly. And then the other one, let's see, what did the other one say?
Johnetta Rhodes [00:17:39]:
Was this a parent child relationship like Norman and Norma Bates or this.
Marnie Vinge [00:17:44]:
The other girl said that she felt she had been hypnotized and mesmerized by this woman and that it was like against her will that she was here and all of this stuff. So I think that. I think maybe the one that was saying the mother daughter kind of relationship. I could see there being some Stockholm syndrome going on there. Yeah, like especially.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:18:03]:
She might have been there longest.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:05]:
Exactly. Especially depending on how long she had been there. And I believe. Let me look in my notes, because, yeah, it was Willetta that indicated they had a mother, daughter type of relationship. And Virginia claimed that Smith had hypnotized and mesmerized her into service.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:18:27]:
Damn.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:28]:
And some of the crazy stuff, like, I think that the person who wrote one of the articles that I looked at about this wasn't taking into account how people can be influenced and how you can fall victim to Stockholm Syndrome, because they were saying, like, well, it's weird that both of the women had jobs outside of the home, but they still came home to her.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:18:48]:
Was this written during.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:50]:
No, this was written by a guy, like a couple.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:18:52]:
Oh, of course. By a dude that. That explains it. Like, you know, because. Oh, well, they have jobs outside. But, I mean, you see that a lot.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:59]:
You see that with abused women.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:19:01]:
You see that especially. What's her name, J.C. dugard. She had a job outside of the man that kidnapped her for what, like 20 years or 18 years? Some. And fear is a powerful thing, and huge fear. They had to, like. I mean, when they were interrogating her. Interrogating.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:19:18]:
Quote. Quote. Because they were trying to. Really. Because they. They thought that that was her. What I read it's been a while, but they had to, like, work her over to finally get her to admit who she was.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:33]:
Wow.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:19:34]:
Like, because the fear of him was so, like, so fucking deep.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:40]:
I can totally imagine that even though.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:19:42]:
They had him arrested, they, you know, they knew who she was. They all of this stuff. Stuff. Like, she still feared that he was gonna take her back.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:51]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:19:52]:
And that, you know, he was gonna, I don't know, like, killer or, you know, rape her again. I mean, he'd been raping her since she was, what, 11 or 12, whenever he took her. And you know that. That's terrifying. On R. Kelly. Recently, one of the moms rescued her daughter. Like, on the deal.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:20:12]:
Sorry, spoiler alert. But on the. The thing rescues her daughter and she goes back three days later and then comes home again. But, like, she said that her daughter had been with him off and on for nine years. It's a hard spell to break once they have you and, you know, they make. And apparently what he does is what I've heard a lot of abusers do. Possibly what this woman, Mrs. Smith, excuse me, did was that they make you believe that they are the only people in the world that care about you.
Marnie Vinge [00:20:48]:
Yes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:20:49]:
That you have no family that cares about you. Like, nobody cares, just them. And they narrow your world to them. Well, and when you do that, that can be very dangerous because it Puts this person on a pedestal and it makes them God. And we all know how dangerous God is. Like, you know, I mean, no offense, people, but, like, yeah, we. We know that. Like, that whole mentality of, you know, I have to do this.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:21:16]:
I. This is, you know, my calling. This is my purpose. This is, you know, that can be very dangerous, especially for sense of self.
Marnie Vinge [00:21:23]:
Right.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:21:24]:
And I think perhaps that is what happened here.
Marnie Vinge [00:21:28]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:21:29]:
Which is sad.
Marnie Vinge [00:21:30]:
Yeah. And not only was she getting them to give her their earnings, she was also getting Virginia's father to send her money.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:21:43]:
Jesus.
Marnie Vinge [00:21:44]:
On the pretense that Virginia was staying with her and Virginia needed a nurse.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:21:49]:
How did she convince him of that?
Marnie Vinge [00:21:50]:
I'm not sure. They kept up a correspondence for years, and he was across state lines. I'm not sure where he was at, but that.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:21:58]:
That's a big travel, especially back then.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:00]:
Yeah. And so all he had to go on was her word, I guess, and that his daughter was not well and that she needed a nurse. So he sent her $17,000 over the course of these years, which is a lot of money back then. I mean, it's a lot of money now.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:22:13]:
It is definitely a lot of money back then. It is a lot of money now. I mean, but.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:18]:
Jeez. Yeah. And one of the things that we did not touch on that is an important element of this story. When the authorities raided the house and they discovered the two girls in the basement, they also discovered Mrs. Smith's predilection for witchcraft.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:22:37]:
Oh, this sounds exciting.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:38]:
Yes. She had books upon books upon books in the basement about ritual, magic, about.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:22:47]:
Dude, I would love to see these.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:48]:
Yes, I know, right?
Johnetta Rhodes [00:22:49]:
Like, where. Where are they? I'm sure they burned them. Probably because, you know, fucking puritanical.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:55]:
Probably.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:22:55]:
Like Oklahoma.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:57]:
It is. Tulsa in the 40s.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:22:59]:
Yeah. I mean, this is in Oklahoma in the 40s. I mean, we're bad about that now, let alone in the 40s. They were probably like, burn the witch's books in the big. You know, in a big bonfire. Like, it was Burning man with witch books. So whatever.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:13]:
Exactly.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:23:14]:
Exactly.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:15]:
Yeah. So there were all of these books, and then to top that off, there was a journal. And in the journal were all of these handwritten notes about Carol Ann Smith's belief that you could control the human mind through witchcraft.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:23:30]:
Man, that would be so fucking dope to see those. Like, just to read them for, like, historical reasons. That sounds fantastic.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:37]:
And what's crazy is even. Even the people who would have said, you know, oh, well, this is down with witchcraft, you know, Whatever, blah, blah, blah. Anybody who would have been a naysayer to all of this or said, like, been skeptical. This is what she was doing.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:23:52]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:52]:
Was controlling them with.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:23:55]:
She made a walk into traffic and die. Like, I really want to know how she. How she, like, manipulated that woman. Like, I mean, that's. That's tragic. And I shouldn't laugh that, you know, she walked into traffic, died. But, like. But, like, that's.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:24:10]:
That's really concerning, and that's crazy. And it makes you wonder, like, what. What did she do to captivate.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:17]:
Even.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:24:17]:
Even if it was just, like, intense psychology and not actually witchcraft.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:22]:
Right.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:24:23]:
How did she do it?
Marnie Vinge [00:24:25]:
Right.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:24:25]:
Because this is. This is a level of mind control that is terrifying.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I. And I think that part of that, too, was, like, some of the weird stuff that she would do, because I know that, like. Well, I know that when you're in.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:24:39]:
A very inner purpose at midnight, your dogs.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:41]:
At midnight, like, it's very ritualistic, which is kind of an element of, like, a cult type setting. And she actually caught her before she.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:24:51]:
Got, like, a million girls, like, shit.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:54]:
Well, her neighbors reported her when she buried the dogs at midnight, but they didn't know there were dogs being buried. They didn't know what was being buried.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:25:02]:
They thought it might be, like, bodies.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:03]:
Yeah. And so they. In this whole discovery, this whole raid and everything, they found that there were two coffins in the ground, and each of them had a dog in them.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:25:13]:
Which sounds pretty ritualistic. I mean, if you think of, like, witchcraft and sacrificing animals.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:20]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:25:20]:
I mean, on the. On the more darker scale of witchcraft, like, we're not knocking the wicca, Right.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:26]:
But we're, like, out there killing dogs. We're. We're kind of shaking our finger at.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:25:30]:
You just a bit. Okay. Because we like dogs and cats and things. I mean, like, if you're. Don't even kill the snakes. Okay? Come on.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:39]:
Just leave them alone.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:25:39]:
Leave the. Leave the poor animals alone.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:42]:
No animal cruelty.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:25:43]:
Yeah. We're not about that life.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:44]:
Yeah. So the Tulsa World, they reported an additional discovery after the raid that, quote, unquote, tends to bear out the sex angle. But it was never revealed what it was.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:26:01]:
So they, like, tried to curb the sex angle. Is that what you're telling me? Okay. But they did. People say. But, like, so, like, the police had, like.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:10]:
Yes. Some kind of. There was some. Some kind of. Some piece of information that made it really look like they were being kept as sex slaves. But it was never fully brought to light because I Think maybe because of the time, like, those details were too.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:26:23]:
Lurid or something, and we didn't have the Sunshine Law in the state of Oklahoma.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:26]:
Exactly. Oh, you don't get me started on the Sunshine Law. Like, I am. I am a proponent of that.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:26:32]:
Oh.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:34]:
So anyway, some people speculate now that maybe what. What they may have found was maybe, like, a sex toy or like, some.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:26:42]:
Kind of sexual apparatus dildo in the 40s.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:45]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:26:46]:
Whoa. Oh, my God. Right? That would. Oh, damn.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:50]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:26:51]:
I would love to see these, like, police reports. I wonder if we could actually get, right, like, access to them now, because it's been years, and they're probably all dead.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:01]:
Right.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:27:01]:
By now. If they were in their 30th. 30s, in the 40s, there's a good chance.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:05]:
Right.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:27:05]:
They are no longer with us.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:07]:
Right. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting to speculate what. What they might have found that. And it's interesting that they never really followed up on it after the fact or anything. Like, it never. That detail never came to light, like, even over the years.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:27:25]:
That makes me. That makes me curious because it's almost like that. Did you ever watch that movie the Black Dahlia or Delilah or whatever it was? Okay, well, like, in it, they kind of play the angle. I mean, I. I don't know the story well enough to really tell you if the movie is accurate or not. Probably I'm gonna guess it's not, because nothing ever is. But, like, Josh Hartnett's in it, like, before he, like, disappeared to knows where.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:50]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:27:51]:
And Scarlett Johansson. And then there's. I kind of remember this Hillary Swank. Hillary Swank is also in it, and she's the girl that, like, dies, I think. And. But they play the angle that she is, like, in lesbianic porn, and it's, like, really hard for the, like, the police officers to watch. And, like, they're kind of, like, trying to cover it up. And, I mean, from what I remember, I only saw the movie once.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:28:14]:
Like, I was kind of like, what the is happening here? I am very confused.
Marnie Vinge [00:28:18]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:28:18]:
So, like, it didn't really resonate with me, but the idea that in that time period that the lesbianic. Like, any of it was just, like, horrifying to them, and they didn't want to reveal it, and they didn't really want to even watch it. And, like. Like, he leaves the room sick to his stomach because he's watching lesbian porn, and it's like. It's like BDSM porn. It's not even, like, tame.
Marnie Vinge [00:28:42]:
Right.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:28:42]:
Vanilla lesbian porn. It is like, girl wearing a strap on, fucking the other one in the ass kind of lesbian porn. Like, I mean, it's hardcore. And, like, so that. That kind of makes me wonder if this was, like, if this kind of rang true. Like, Hollywood wants ringing true to, like, real life circumstances in something like this, right? Like, oh, we can't. We can't talk about that, because if we talk about it, that's gonna make other people do it. You know, that whole fear of which, huh? Too bad.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:29:14]:
So sad. Gays can get married. Bye. But, like, you know, back then, it was horrific, right? You know, everyone knew about it. Nobody talked about it.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:22]:
Right? Yeah. So you want to know the. The weirdest? I guess not the weirdest, but I guess one of the injustices of this. She faced very little time for her crimes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:29:35]:
Imagine that, a sex offender.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:37]:
Take a guess.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:29:38]:
Like, 10 months.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:40]:
One year.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:29:40]:
One year. I was close.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:41]:
Yeah, you were close. You were right on. Yeah. And the only thing, like, they didn't. They didn't get her for having sex slaves. They got her for.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:29:56]:
For the fraud.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:57]:
Yes, for fraud. And for forcing the girls to perjure themselves in a case about an assault that involved a neighbor in years prior. Like, she told the girls what to say when they were on the stand, and they did. And so they got her for perjuring them.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:15]:
Oh, okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:16]:
So. And she got.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:17]:
That's interesting.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:17]:
She got in trouble for defrauding Evans's father across state lines.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:22]:
And she only got a fucking year for all of these. For all of these things.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:26]:
And forgetting Bon Bon's ration book.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:28]:
Damn. And that would be like a federal.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:30]:
Oh, yeah. And just a year. Just a year. And there's not much to be known about her after she was released from prison.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:37]:
Holy shit.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:38]:
She just kind of disappeared.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:40]:
I wonder if someone killed her.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:42]:
I don't know. She seems too mean to kill.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:45]:
Well, they might have been too afraid to, like, approach her, and she kind of just, like, went underground or whatever. Damn, that's weird.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:53]:
It's wild.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:30:53]:
A year. I wonder if it's because she looks like a nice old white grandma.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:57]:
I'm sure it is. I was. That was something I was gonna bring up is how do you think this might have played out differently had she.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:03]:
Been a man or a black woman.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:05]:
Oh, yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:06]:
Or a black woman practicing hoodoo.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:08]:
Yeah.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:09]:
Quote on white women.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:10]:
Oh.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:11]:
Keeping them. Keeping them enslaved.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:12]:
I mean.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:13]:
Oh, yeah. They would have hung her or something. Like, probably back then it had been the chair.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:17]:
Yeah. You know what I mean? But, like, the lights would have gone dim in McAllister.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:21]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:22]:
Which my dad. My dad used to tell me when I was a kid. He lived. He was from eastern Oklahoma.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:28]:
Right.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:28]:
And he swore. I don't know how true this was. He swore.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:32]:
One of those tall tales that you're not sure of the validity.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:35]:
I'm not sure if it was true, but I kind of think it might have been. He said that whenever they would execute somebody in the chair in McAllister, the lights in Stigler would go dim.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:46]:
I don't know, man. I could. I could. I don't see that. I could. I could maybe see that happening, like, back in the.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:51]:
You know, in the 50s. Like 50s.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:31:53]:
Maybe our power plants were not as bad.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:55]:
Maybe not. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it might. It might have been true. It might have been true. But then again, this is also a man who convinced my mother that he was in the CIA when they first.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:32:07]:
Said, like, yeah, he convinced I'm in the CIA. Huh. Because you would tell me. Right.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:13]:
He traveled a whole bunch, and he always was having to do, like, really important stuff for Kermagee, and he convinced her that he was actually in the CIA and that he was not supposed.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:32:23]:
To tell her that, but he loved her so much.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:25]:
Yes.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:32:25]:
Huh. Yeah. He thought your dad was feeding some good lines.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:29]:
Oh, yeah. He thought he was hilarious. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, he was.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:32:33]:
He sounds like he was, man.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:34]:
He was a fun guy. Yeah. So. So that's it. And I think that maybe we should do a follow up to this in October and go to the Hex House attraction.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:32:46]:
I think that would be totally dope. Like, I am. I am for that idea.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:50]:
I. I'm for that idea, too. It's. It's not actually located where the original Hex House was, but the spirit of the Hex House lives on in the Tulsa Hex House attraction.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:01]:
I wonder how mad they'd be if I showed up, like, dressed up as her.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:05]:
Probably not mad.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:06]:
I'd be like, can I be a part of your attraction? Can probably.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:09]:
They probably wouldn't be mad. I don't think they'd be mad.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:11]:
I'm like. I want to, like, run around to all the. All the ladies and try to put my witchcraft on them.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:16]:
Put my witchcraft on them. Oh, my God. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for. For doing this. I had so much fun. And do you want to plug anything? Your Instagram?
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:28]:
Oh, yeah. You know, if anyone wants to follow me. It's not. It's not like. I mean, I fail at social media. I feel like you know, you're doing good.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:35]:
I think you're doing good.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:36]:
I, I am like, constantly like, oh, I gotta post. I gotta, I gotta kind of try to interact with people. It is, it is. Especially whenever you're an extroverted introvert. Like, I'm. I'm not good at that. But, yeah, you know, I'm at just. J U S tjonetta J O H N E T T A on Instagram.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:55]:
My Facebook is, like, dead, but I.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:58]:
Have it linked to it.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:33:59]:
So, you know, like, my author page.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:00]:
I'm like, author page on Facebook.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:34:02]:
I know. I'm. I, I figure whenever, Whenever I finally actually get my draft to a legible draft, I will, I'll, like, start doing sneak peeks and stuff there. But for now, whenever people tag me on Instagram, that's where it goes to. I don't even really check it because I'm not really on my, my main Facebook all that much either. Like, not anymore. I used to be. I used to be a really big Facebooker.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:34:27]:
Whoops. But, you know, same. Doing the stuff. But no, yeah, thanks for having me. This was great.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:33]:
And you're so welcome. I can't wait to have you back and maybe when you come back, you'll be ready to plug your podcast.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:34:38]:
Oh, that would be so fun. Which I will totally be having you on, of course, because I'm so excited. We work so well together and we.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:46]:
Have so much fun.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:34:46]:
Marnie's one of my favorite people. Plus, you know, A only has so many friends, right?
Marnie Vinge [00:34:50]:
That's right. That's what I said when I started this podcast. I was like, I'm only gonna have, like, a revolving number of people on this podcast because A only has so many friends.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:34:58]:
Right? Like, that. That cracked me up because I was like, truth, right? Like, I think you hit 30 and then you kind of get to that point where you're like, your circle just kind of shrinks. Shrinks to like, three people. You're like, that's good, that's good. Cut it off, cut it off. Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:12]:
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, and I can't wait to have you back.
Johnetta Rhodes [00:35:16]:
Thanks. I can't wait for it either. Sam.
Marnie Vinge [00:36:04]:
Same.