SIRLOIN STOCKADE
Share
Listen to SIRLOIN STOCKADE now
Marnie Vinge [00:00:00]:
I'm Marnie Vinge and this is Eerie Okie. Join me and my friends as we explore the darker side of the Sooner State. Okay, so have you ever thought, like, in any given day, like, how many times you might have crossed paths with someone who just killed someone else?
Jay Sheldon [00:01:09]:
That is not where I thought you were going with that question. I have thought about whether or not I've run into somebody who's murdered somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:21]:
Kind of like that.
Jay Sheldon [00:01:22]:
Real weird because everyone seems normal for the most part. But yeah. I could have passed by somebody on the way here.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:29]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:01:30]:
Killed somebody or just got done killing.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:32]:
Somebody or had someone in their trunk.
Jay Sheldon [00:01:33]:
Yeah, yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:35]:
That's like on their way to, like dispose of it.
Jay Sheldon [00:01:37]:
It's terrifying.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:38]:
It is terrifying. Like, I got that question in my head because I heard a cop speak at a writers meeting one time and. And she was telling about a guy like dropping a body off in Norman. But yeah, it like totally, totally stayed with me. So I'm glad that I'm not the.
Jay Sheldon [00:01:52]:
Only one that think about how many bodies are in lakes and buried in fields.
Marnie Vinge [00:01:57]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:01:58]:
Where are all these murderers at?
Marnie Vinge [00:02:00]:
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But we're going to talk about one of them tonight. Yeah. So welcome to Erioki. I'm Marnie Vinge and I'm here today with Jay Sheldon. Jay is a friend of mine. We go way back, all the way back to seventh grade.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:14]:
And I'll let him introduce himself and tell you what he's been up to and.
Jay Sheldon [00:02:18]:
Oh, yeah, let me. You want, like, life story? Do you want.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:22]:
Whatever you want to tell?
Jay Sheldon [00:02:24]:
Okay. Well, I'm currently working in advertising in Oklahoma City. I have my own podcast that Marnie was on.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:32]:
Yes.
Jay Sheldon [00:02:32]:
Called Miscellaneous Important Stuff. And it's about miscellaneous stuff that's important. Is important.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:39]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:02:40]:
Made short films for a lot of years. I have a lot of hobbies. I like to talk about murder.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:47]:
Which is what brought you here tonight.
Jay Sheldon [00:02:49]:
Yeah. So I was like, you know what? Do you want to have a conversation on murder?
Marnie Vinge [00:02:52]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:02:53]:
Do you have a podcast that I could. Yeah, let's do it.
Marnie Vinge [00:02:55]:
That's exactly how this happened. Okay, so we're going to talk about Roger Dale Stafford, who killed six, I believe it was six people at the Sirloin Stockade on I240 back in 1978. So here we go. So in June 22nd of 1978, Air Force Sergeant Melvin Lawrence, 38, and his wife, who was also a sergeant, which I thought was kind of a cool detail about her since she was female and it was the 70s. Linda Laurens, who was 31, along with their son Richard, who was 13, were, were headed north from San Antonio to attend Melvin Lawrence's mother's funeral. They were passing through Purcell and they spotted a woman alone, sitting in her car with the hood up and being Good Samaritans, they stopped. Like you do.
Jay Sheldon [00:03:48]:
First mistake.
Marnie Vinge [00:03:49]:
Yeah, exactly. Which I think today, like just because of this case, I think that people would be more skeptical about stopping and also because I think that people have cell phones and you'd think that somebody could call and get their own help.
Jay Sheldon [00:04:04]:
Yeah. A dark road, middle of the night. I'm sorry, I'm not stopping.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:11]:
No, I'm not stopping for anybody. Like, it doesn't matter who's standing beside that car.
Jay Sheldon [00:04:15]:
I'll wish you the best.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:17]:
Exactly. Like, you're on your own. You're on, you're on your own.
Jay Sheldon [00:04:20]:
Like, I'm not that brave.
Marnie Vinge [00:04:22]:
Right. And so they, they stopped and Melvin got out of their car and he went to help. And when he did, Roger and his brother, who were out of sight, approached and Roger demanded his wallet and he wouldn't give it to him. Roger was upset with him and Roger shot him. That's a direct quote from Verna Stafford. That's what she testified. So they were hiding out of sight. Like this was this whole thing that was actually Verna's idea, like was to have her pose as a helpless woman on the side of the highway and then have her husband and his brother like come and take the money from the people who were helping them.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:02]:
So I don't know if she thought this would end in murder, but it did. And after that, Linda Lawrence like jumped out of the car. She was freaking out. She tried to attack Verna and Verna fought back. She said, quote, I caught her on the side of the face and she lost balance. And then Roger shot her too.
Jay Sheldon [00:05:20]:
What a maniac.
Marnie Vinge [00:05:21]:
Yeah, so he. Yeah. And they then heard a small voice which turned out to be the Lorenz's 13 year old son Richard, and the camper atop the Lawrence's pickup truck, which I don't know if he, what he was doing up there, like if he Got scared and he got up in there, but they heard him. And Roger, there was a. An inmate that ended up testifying against him or, like, testifying as a. I don't know exactly what that would be, but he got some kind of deal out of it for his sentencing. And he said that Roger said it didn't matter if a victim was 2 or 82. I believe he didn't care.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:00]:
Like, it didn't. It didn't matter to him. So he actually shot this kid, too, man. Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:06:07]:
Do you think if it was you or actually, do you think if he gave up his wallet, if it would. Do you think it would have ended differently?
Marnie Vinge [00:06:15]:
You know what? I don't know, because I've done a lot of thinking about that because of what ended up happening at the Sirloin Stockade. Like, when the. We'll get into that. Like, about what the manager said to him and kind of whether or not that, like, spurred him on.
Jay Sheldon [00:06:28]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:29]:
But I don't know. I kind of feel like this guy, like, had it in him to kill somebody. Like, he's very. He seems like a psychopath.
Jay Sheldon [00:06:38]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:38]:
Like, a lot of the things he does are very narcissistic psychopath. Like, and so, I don't know. I think that he. I think maybe he knew that they were going to kill these people.
Jay Sheldon [00:06:52]:
Yeah. I thought about that recently. You'll see videos, like, robberies and stuff.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:55]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:06:55]:
And I'm like, I wonder what I would do.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:57]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:06:57]:
Everyone's like, if it was me.
Marnie Vinge [00:06:59]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:07:00]:
I would shoot that robber.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:03]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:07:04]:
I'm not giving up. I don't know. I think I'd probably just be like, yeah, take what you want.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:08]:
I think. I think I would, too, because, like, it's really easy. It's really easy to, like, sit here and be like, oh, I'd totally be a hero. Like, I would totally, like, like, fight back and all that.
Jay Sheldon [00:07:17]:
Make all the right tactical moves.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:19]:
Exactly.
Jay Sheldon [00:07:20]:
I'd probably be scared.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:22]:
I think I would be terrified. Because, like, we've talked about, like, one of my biggest fears is being somewhere where a. Like, a gunman comes in. And I. Like, there was one time during my last semester at UCO where I was in my forensics class, which was in a huge auditorium that had two double doorways that opened up around. Like, it was. I'm trying to show Jay, and you guys can't see this, but, like, they. They kind of these two entrances led in to hallways that then turned and went into the auditorium.
Marnie Vinge [00:07:58]:
And so it always freaked me out that those doors were left open during class. It always freaked me out. It was always on my mind. And there was one time during class when this guy who I did not recognize came walking in and he was acting really weird. Turned out he was just, like, tech support. And he was just, like, going to fix, like, something that had to do with your mind. Oh, in my mind, he was about to shoot the school up. Like, I was.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:24]:
I was, like, grabbing. Like, I. I was grabbing the desk. Like, I was. I. I was ready to die, basically. I was like, this is it. And I.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:31]:
So I don't know. Like, I think when people have that amazing presence of mind in a crisis, it's just incredible. Like, I don't know how that happens.
Jay Sheldon [00:08:43]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:44]:
But it just kind of. I think some kind of, like, autopilot just takes over, and they just, like, do it. 1, 2, 3, 4. Like, this is what I've got to do to get out of this, to survive. So.
Jay Sheldon [00:08:54]:
Yeah. Can that be learned? Maybe I need to learn that.
Marnie Vinge [00:08:56]:
Yeah, I think I need to learn that, too. That would be a good skill to have.
Jay Sheldon [00:09:00]:
I wonder if you learn that in Boy Scouts.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:02]:
Yeah, exactly. I think that would be something I could put on my LinkedIn profile. Like, I know what does well.
Jay Sheldon [00:09:08]:
And, like, disaster situation.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:11]:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which I have been told that I'm good in a crisis, but it's not something that I like to practice.
Jay Sheldon [00:09:19]:
No. Like, how do you even learn that?
Marnie Vinge [00:09:21]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:09:21]:
In a lot of. Yeah, Crisis.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:24]:
I think crises. I think that's how that's. That's how I learned it. Lots of crises. Okay. So after. After they killed this family, they dumped the bodies of the two adults in a field just beside the road. And then they drove Richard's body a little ways up the road before dumping him.
Marnie Vinge [00:09:44]:
In a similar fashion, which I thought was kind of weird, like, it made it somehow better, or they didn't want the kid connected to it. Like, it's just this weird logic that Roger Dale Stafford had going on. It's kind of strange.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:02]:
Yeah. But it seems like he probably had some in his mind.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:06]:
Right? Like, this made sense somehow. Yeah. And then so Harold and Roger followed Verna in Melvin Lawrence's pickup truck. They took his pickup truck. They followed her to Will Rogers Airport. They left the truck there, but before they did that, they stopped and had a bite to eat.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:24]:
Of course.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:25]:
Like, and I love the article that was talking about this because it said they stopped and had a bite to eat.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:31]:
Sounds so casual.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:31]:
It does. It definitely does not sound like something you would do right After a murder. But like, this guy is a cold blooded killer.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:41]:
Did it say what he. What they ate?
Marnie Vinge [00:10:43]:
Did not. Did not say what they ate.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:45]:
I'm curious. I wonder like if it would match up with what I have in my head.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:50]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:50]:
I'm thinking like steak burgers maybe.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:53]:
Yeah, that's like a little like greasy spoon diner type.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:57]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:10:58]:
Place.
Jay Sheldon [00:10:58]:
I don't see him as like organic vegan.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:01]:
No.
Jay Sheldon [00:11:02]:
Having a salad.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:03]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:11:03]:
With a water.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:04]:
You got it. That's not a post murder meal.
Jay Sheldon [00:11:06]:
No.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:07]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:11:07]:
Need some meat.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:08]:
Yeah, exactly. So, so like I said before, Verna said it was her idea to put on the stranded motorist ploy. And the reason that they did that was because they needed money to pay their rent in Tulsa while Harold, Roger's brother, needed some cash to pay for a girlfriend's abortion. So this, this event took place right before the Sirloin Stockade murders, which. The Sirloin Stockade was located on I240 and Penn. Where. Do you know where Joe's grows? Joe's Crab Shack and Starbucks are right there.
Jay Sheldon [00:11:44]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:11:45]:
Okay. That's where this was, which is where I worked my first semester of college was at that Starbucks. And I am very glad that I did not know that that was that location, which I don't know how I didn't know it, because my aunt kind of has this weird connection to the Sirloin Stockade situation. The night that it happened, which was July 16, 1978, she was with a friend at the movies. They'd gone to church and then they'd gone to eat somewhere up in Oklahoma City. And then they, they were gonna go, they went to the movies. And after that they were going to see what one of her friends was doing, which was Terry Horst and who is one of the victims. And for whatever reason, my aunt said that she just kind of.
Marnie Vinge [00:12:30]:
They drove by Sirloin stockade right around 10 o' clock and something. She was just like, you know what? Let's, let's not bother, let's not bother with it. Let's just go home.
Jay Sheldon [00:12:40]:
Wow.
Marnie Vinge [00:12:40]:
Yeah. So it was, I mean, wild, like.
Jay Sheldon [00:12:44]:
Yeah. Because is that just coincidence meant to happen?
Marnie Vinge [00:12:49]:
Yeah, it's really, it's. It's really weird and like. And I, I always like hesitate on the whole, like meant to happen thing because I always feel like, like it's like when people say like everything happens for a reason. I'm like, well, really? Everything.
Jay Sheldon [00:13:07]:
I know. I hate that too. Because, well, we have choices and we are.
Marnie Vinge [00:13:09]:
Exactly. And it's like, so you're saying that, like, this bad stuff, like, happened for a reason. Like, what was the reason? Like, I'm a bad person.
Jay Sheldon [00:13:15]:
We don't know yet, but we'll. We'll figure it out.
Marnie Vinge [00:13:17]:
We'll figure it out. Yeah. So. So some kind of weird intuition or like, something came over her, and she was like, you know what? Let's just go home. And so they did. But the Sirloin Stockade, which. It was a restaurant. It was like an all you can eat buffet type restaurant, which my mom has described it to me kind of like Western sizzling.
Jay Sheldon [00:13:38]:
Oh, okay. Which is also over in that area, isn't it?
Marnie Vinge [00:13:41]:
It's. Well, yeah, I think it is. I think it is. Yeah. Because I remember one time my mom said something about Sirloin Stockade when we were up there, and I was like, western sizzling. She's like, no, it was kind of like that. But people got murdered there. So I was like, okay, but.
Marnie Vinge [00:13:57]:
Yeah. So let's see. Where are we at? Okay. So the Staffords decided that they would again commit robbery. And this was July of 1978. They'd gotten away with what they had done to the Laurens family. And for whatever reason, they were in Tulsa, but they chose the sirloin stockade on 74th in Oklahoma City, which is what 240 used to be known as. They drove from Tulsa and parked, waited in the parking lot, and they watched the customers empty out of the building.
Marnie Vinge [00:14:33]:
At 10pm the two men went to the side door. The manager answered, and they held him at gunpoint, demanding to be taken to the cash register and the office safe. And then this is. This is the part that I was talking about earlier. The manager did something then that potentially shaped the way events unfolded. He taunted the Staffords. He asked them why people rob others instead of working for their own money. And angered, Roger demanded that he call his employees to the cash register.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:00]:
And this is where it goes from just being a robbery at gunpoint to I think that something flipped in his mind, and he was like, okay, like, you're all gonna die now.
Jay Sheldon [00:15:12]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:13]:
Like, I really think that he made a choice right then.
Jay Sheldon [00:15:17]:
Push me over the edge.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:18]:
Yeah, don't disrespect me like that. Like, which is totally a, like, psycho kind of narcissistic thought. Yeah, like, it's very. Wow. I mean, like, I don't like being disrespected, but I wouldn't kill somebody over. But then again, I wouldn't. I wouldn't rob someone.
Jay Sheldon [00:15:39]:
It's funny because also, the manager and every employee is really being disrespected by you coming into their business.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:44]:
Yeah. With a gun, demanding their money. It's really disrespectful, Right, Exactly. There's. There's always like this weird disconnect with people who do these kind of things, like. And there's this weird logic.
Jay Sheldon [00:15:56]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:56]:
That kind of follows.
Jay Sheldon [00:15:57]:
They don't see their own wrongdoing. It's just.
Marnie Vinge [00:15:59]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:16:00]:
People. You people.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:01]:
There's a code. Like, it's like when they say, like, honor among thieves kind of.
Jay Sheldon [00:16:04]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:05]:
Kind of a thing, but. Yeah. So while Harold and Verna held them at gunpoint, Roger got the manager to empty about $1300 from the safe. It was 12, $1290. He then ordered everyone into the freezer. Verner would later. Verna would later testify that Harold reminded Roger then that no one needed to get hurt. But Roger replied, they'll get what they deserve, man.
Marnie Vinge [00:16:31]:
Yeah. He then shot the janitor, who was Isaac Freeman. And then both of the men, Harold and Roger, opened fire on the rest of them. Then before it was over, Roger handed the gun to Verna and told her that it was time for her to take part. He wanted her to get her hands dirty, too. He didn't want her to be able to say, I didn't want any part of this. Like, I didn't think people were gonna die, that kind of thing. And he helped her pull the trigger.
Marnie Vinge [00:17:01]:
In all, six people died. Isaac Freeman, the manager, Louis Zacharias, and four teenage employees. David Salzman, Anthony Tew, David Lindsay, and my aunt's friend, Terry Horst.
Jay Sheldon [00:17:12]:
Wow.
Marnie Vinge [00:17:14]:
Yeah. So this, I mean, if you can imagine, like, imagine something like that happening when we were in high school, like at Western, Sizzling and Moore, like, lost my mind. Yeah. That, and especially, like, this is at a time when, like, Columbine had not happened and the, like, Columbine had not happened, the movie theater shooting had not happened. That was not something that was in the news all the time and happening all the time.
Jay Sheldon [00:17:44]:
And I just remember when Columbine happened, that was like, well, like, how is this possible?
Marnie Vinge [00:17:49]:
Right? Yeah, it was like something.
Jay Sheldon [00:17:52]:
Something you considered when going to school.
Marnie Vinge [00:17:54]:
I can remember it was the first time that I realized I wasn't safe at school. And it was a very, like. It was a weird feeling. It was kind of. It was kind of like 9, 11, where I. I realized that I was not safe in my country was how I felt like in life.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:11]:
Really.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:12]:
In life. Really? Yeah. Like anywhere you go, like, you're not safe at the airport. You're not safe on an airplane.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:16]:
Like, stay home.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:17]:
It was kind of like this feel. Yeah, exactly, it was. Which is where my agoraphobia developed from. Not really, but. But yeah. So it's. I can't even imagine being.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:29]:
But like living there and hearing about it. I'm sure it must have been. Or if you had eaten there and that was a normal place for you, Right. The idea of people dying in there.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:37]:
Yeah, it's very. It's very, very strange.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:39]:
But in defense of that manager, I think, haven't we all had days where you're like, if anybody messes with me today, I am not going to take it?
Marnie Vinge [00:18:49]:
Oh, yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:50]:
Maybe he was just having one of those days.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:51]:
He just had it up to here.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:53]:
Yeah. He just been there all day. Right. Like.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:54]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:55]:
At the restaurant.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:55]:
Right. He's getting ready to close. He's getting ready to go home to his family.
Jay Sheldon [00:18:58]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:18:59]:
And then this jerk shows up and is like, give me all your money. Like, I. I can see how somebody would have an attitude.
Jay Sheldon [00:19:05]:
I've imagined that exact scenario.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:07]:
Really.
Jay Sheldon [00:19:08]:
What if somebody tried to rob me right now when I'm having a really bad day? I think I'm not gonna allow it.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:12]:
Yeah, exactly. It's. It's kind of like maybe that's how those people who are in high stress situations that end up doing all the right things, like, maybe they're having a terrible day.
Jay Sheldon [00:19:22]:
Like, not today, not today.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:23]:
Like, they. They just. They just go into autopilot and they're like, you know what? I don't care. Like, yeah, this might be it, but not today.
Jay Sheldon [00:19:30]:
But I am that done with this day. Yeah, I'm willing to risk everything.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:35]:
Exactly. Yeah. And I think I. I could totally, like, I get why he would be, like, pissed off that these guys were doing that. And it. And I think that's also probably, like, going back to it being that time period. I don't think he thought in his wildest dreams that that guy was actually gonna shoot anyone.
Jay Sheldon [00:19:53]:
No. And I think there are a lot of people who rob and like, threaten to kill or hurt. And they're like, well, you're not really going to.
Marnie Vinge [00:19:59]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:19:59]:
But you don't ever know.
Marnie Vinge [00:20:00]:
Yeah, exactly. And I think today we're much more cautious about those kind of situations because people are crazy.
Jay Sheldon [00:20:07]:
Yeah, that's very true.
Marnie Vinge [00:20:08]:
They're insane. And so we're very like. Like, I remember when I worked at the bank, there was this one customer that was a regular. And when I very first started, I Had just gone through robbery training.
Jay Sheldon [00:20:25]:
Never heard of robbery training.
Marnie Vinge [00:20:26]:
Yeah, I had just gone through robbery training, which I don't remember a whole lot of it, but I remember that you push the panic button and just kind of like, try to do whatever they tell you and don't be a hero, basically, is, like, what they. What they were saying. Because there was. There was an. And I can't remember if it happened at the bank that I worked at. Not like the actual branch, but like, that company in Tulsa where a pregnant woman was shot because she couldn't open the vault because there's, like, a timer on it and you can't get into it. Like, you can only get into it during certain time windows, and the robber did not believe her and so shot her and killed her.
Jay Sheldon [00:21:04]:
They probably do that to save lives, Right?
Marnie Vinge [00:21:07]:
Exactly. Which is the weird. The weird part about it. And I had just gone through this whole thing, like, learning all about this. And there was this guy I did not know. He was a regular at the time, but I was up front with one of the other girls and our manager and one of the personal banking representatives. And when he walked in, I didn't notice it at the time, but they all went to the back. And so I'm up there by myself with this guy.
Marnie Vinge [00:21:30]:
He walks in, and he comes up to me, and he's like. First thing he says to me, he's got sunglasses on, and he's got this coat that kind of doesn't match with the weather outside. And the first thing he says is, turn that frown upside down, Charlie Brown. And I'm like, okay, this is weird.
Jay Sheldon [00:21:49]:
Sounds like a cool robbery line.
Marnie Vinge [00:21:50]:
Yeah, exactly like. And then he goes. He goes, give me a piece of paper. Not a deposit slip, not a withdrawal slip, a piece of paper. And I'm like, this is how it happens. Like, I'm like, I'm about to be robbed. And he's got his hand in his pocket, and he's acting really squirrely, And I say, would you like a deposit slip? And he goes, no, a piece of paper and a pen. And I'm like, okay.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:14]:
Oh, my God, this guy's about to rob me. So I'm looking around for, like, the other employees, and they're all. They've all abandoned me. And that sound you hear in the background is Oscar tap dancing, doing his little thing, getting his guest spot on the podcast, saying hello. Yep. So he, like, gets me to give him this. This piece of paper, and he starts writing, and he hands it to me. It's his Social Security number.
Marnie Vinge [00:22:41]:
He wanted me to use it to look up his account, but, like, he couldn't tell me that. And so I'm like, my hand is on the button. Like, I am ready. I'm ready. Like, I'm like, I'm about to be robbed. I may be murdered. Like, it's going down. And then I find out, like, afterwards that everybody, like, left because they think he's a creepy, and so they just wanted to leave him with the new girl.
Jay Sheldon [00:23:02]:
And this is like, prank the new girl.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:04]:
Yeah, exactly. Like, so I'm like, thanks, guys. But so I can imagine, like, if I had had a really rough day and I'd been experienced there, and somebody came in and was, like, giving me a hard time, and I was just at my breaking point. Yeah. I might get a little mouthy.
Jay Sheldon [00:23:23]:
Yeah. Almost. Where you're like, please, please mess with me.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:27]:
Yeah, exactly.
Jay Sheldon [00:23:28]:
Somebody say something because I'm ready.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:30]:
Exactly. Yeah. That I could. I could totally see that. So that's just. I. I can't even imagine that kind of a thing happening. Like, and.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:41]:
And it happened right here in Oklahoma.
Jay Sheldon [00:23:43]:
Scary.
Marnie Vinge [00:23:44]:
It is scary. So after the crime, there were two witnesses, and one of them was another motorist who Roger Dale Stafford almost hit while fleeing the scene of the crime. Because I guess he was driving a little erratically after he just killed six people and stacked them up in a freezer. Yeah. So he almost hit this guy. And the guy identified his green station wagon. And then the other one was a boyfriend of one of the victims, who I believe it was actually Terry's boyfriend. And he saw the vehicle before they left, and he was able to give them that tip.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:25]:
And then during the week after the Staffords committed their crime. This is like the biggest piece of karma of this whole case. During the week, like, just right after they did this, Harold was killed in a motorcycle accident, which I think is great.
Jay Sheldon [00:24:41]:
Yeah. Like. Well, yeah, everything works out, right?
Marnie Vinge [00:24:45]:
Yeah, exactly. Everything happens for a reason, Harold.
Jay Sheldon [00:24:48]:
Everything. I mean, it was bound to happen eventually.
Marnie Vinge [00:24:51]:
Exactly. Yeah. So a woman who visited Harold in the funeral home was traced to Arkansas. And when she was questioned, she pointed them towards Chicago. And Verna was arrested. And one of the. One of the people. I meant to go into this a little earlier.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:09]:
One of the people, Sergeant Lanny Mitchell, who was the first police officer on the scene, a direct quote about what he saw was, I opened the freezer door and all I could see was blood and brains. It was totally incomprehensible.
Jay Sheldon [00:25:22]:
That'll mess with you forever.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:23]:
Oh, I Think so, yeah. Like, oh, I. I don't know how cops see what they see and maintain any amount of normalcy in their everyday lives.
Jay Sheldon [00:25:34]:
I think you have to be just different. You have to be made for that.
Marnie Vinge [00:25:38]:
Oh, yeah, I think so.
Jay Sheldon [00:25:39]:
I went to a. Something, the Omniplex. It was like an adult night where there's beer and, like, people on a panel. And there was one guy, he was a forensic investigator or something, and he just had slides of dead bodies, and he's just talking very casually about it, like, what a murder looks like versus just natural death. And he seemed to love it.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:01]:
When I was in that forensics class, we had a profiler come and do a presentation, and that was fascinating because, I mean, he had, like, I am a complete ghoul, and so I not enjoy, but I am fascinated by crime scene photos and things like that. And he had a bunch of. That. A bunch of serial killing photos which had, like, ritualistic elements to them. Like, the guy carved things on the people's backs and, like, left messages for the press on the people's backs. Like, carved it. And, I mean, he. He said in that presentation, he was like, you see a side of humanity when you do this job that you can't unsee.
Marnie Vinge [00:26:46]:
Like, he was like, you don't look at people the same anymore because you.
Jay Sheldon [00:26:49]:
Know what they're capable of, right?
Marnie Vinge [00:26:51]:
Yeah, because you know that, like, there's that darkness in all of us, and the. This selection of the population has just chosen to act on it. And that is. I was listening to a podcast on the way home today, and I was thinking about that, and I was thinking, you know, people who have those dark thoughts and dark fantasies, the only thing that separates them from these people is the choice to act on it.
Jay Sheldon [00:27:15]:
Oh, yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:16]:
And, like, I think we've all had dark thoughts, and, like, you know, like, just the thought passes through your head, like, I could do that. Like, that. I'm, like, not capable in terms of, like, morally capable, but, like, physically.
Jay Sheldon [00:27:28]:
Yeah. Like, it wouldn't be hard right now. Like, you could kill me right now.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:31]:
Exactly. Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:27:32]:
Capable, Exactly.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:33]:
Like, I'm physically capable of that. And it's very. It's a weird place that you get into in your head when you start going down that path of, like, what am I capable of?
Jay Sheldon [00:27:43]:
And it's just what's keeping me from doing it.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:45]:
Exactly. Like, what is. What is. What is keeping me from making these choices?
Jay Sheldon [00:27:50]:
If I act on every thought I ever had, I wouldn't. I'd be in jail.
Marnie Vinge [00:27:54]:
Yeah, exactly. Same, same, same. And I think anyone who tells you differently is lying.
Jay Sheldon [00:27:59]:
They're a liar, they're boring. I don't want to talk to them.
Marnie Vinge [00:28:02]:
Yeah, exactly. I would way rather talk to people that. With that. That life experience.
Jay Sheldon [00:28:06]:
Be honest. We've all had real bad thoughts.
Marnie Vinge [00:28:09]:
Exactly. Yeah. And that's. That's a whole thing, like, intrusive thoughts, like, you know, so. So the crime spree was described as the worst in Oklahoma history by an Oklahoma judge and an Oklahoma Crime Bureau agent. Arthur Linville called the Lawrence killing, which I don't know if he had what he had to do with the Sirloin Stockade murders, but I think this kind of almost goes hand in hand. He called it a joy killing, and he said they could have gotten more from selling drugs or stealing cars. Linville added that the victims were doing exactly as they were told before the robbers herded them into the freezer and shot them to death.
Marnie Vinge [00:28:55]:
So I think he very much enjoyed this. Like, he. This was a power move. Like, you disrespected me. I'm gonna show you what happens. Like, kind of. Kind of a thing.
Jay Sheldon [00:29:09]:
Wonder what his childhood was like.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:12]:
Yeah, I would like to know that. I didn't find a lot about his past or anything like that, but I would like to know that.
Jay Sheldon [00:29:19]:
There's gotta be something there.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:20]:
Yeah, I'm sure there is. I'm sure there's probably much more than what I was able to scratch the surface of.
Jay Sheldon [00:29:25]:
That would make me feel better.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:26]:
If he had a bad childhood.
Jay Sheldon [00:29:27]:
Yeah. Well, if he was, like, perfect childhood.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:30]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:29:30]:
He's raised really well. He just chose this, and he's like, I don't know. Let's murder.
Marnie Vinge [00:29:34]:
Yeah, let's murder. Okay, so January 2, 1979, the police released three composite sketches of the suspects. And this is where I think his, like, psycho psychopathy or narcissism is, like, on full display, which. It's also on full display later, which we'll get into. But he got drunk, and he anonymously called the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and said that he recognized two of the composite sketches. Verna and Harold, but not the other. He claimed that he had partied with both of them in Tulsa. So needless to say, they were able to trace him to Chicago.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:18]:
Like, they're not. They're not complete dummies. Like, they were like, oh, really? Like you. You partied with them. You know, you recognize two of them, but not the other guy. Okay. And you're in Chicago, which is where we arrested your wife. Like, you're legit.
Marnie Vinge [00:30:32]:
Yeah. So March 13, 1979, he was arrested in the YMCA lobby in Chicago and was transferred back to Oklahoma City the next day, where in August, he was ordered to stand trial for the murders. And in the trial, Verna ended up testifying against Roger, and she divorced him while he was on death row. Which, I mean, I don't blame her, but at the same time, like, she's pretty awful herself.
Jay Sheldon [00:30:58]:
Yeah. Like, did that make her feel better?
Marnie Vinge [00:30:59]:
Right? Yeah, she's like. She's like, well, this is. This is where I draw the line.
Jay Sheldon [00:31:05]:
I could never be with a man who's just as bad as me.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:07]:
Yeah. I could never be with someone on death row. Just like, free murderers. Yeah. So she ended up being sentenced to two life terms for her involvement in the murders. And a judge told her on August 7, 1989, in a re sentencing hearing, there's one of the hottest corners in hell vacant with your name right above it. And he was the one who sentenced her to two consecutive life terms.
Jay Sheldon [00:31:34]:
Wow.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:35]:
Roger married again twice while waiting to be executed.
Jay Sheldon [00:31:39]:
Twice.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:40]:
Yeah. Two. Okay. So, like, I do not understand women who want to marry serial killers or spree killers or any kind of killer. That's like, in prison, it's like a weird fantasy, right?
Jay Sheldon [00:31:52]:
It's gotta be.
Marnie Vinge [00:31:52]:
I. I think. I think it must be because, like, I. I was on one of those dating apps, and every once in a while you come across a prisoner because, like, they've got some homie on the outside that's like, hooking them up or like, they're on some kind of pen pal website where they're, like, pulling their pictures and putting them on these.
Jay Sheldon [00:32:11]:
Dating.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:12]:
It's very interesting. It's fascinating, and I would. I would love to talk to someone who, like, fell in love with a prisoner.
Jay Sheldon [00:32:19]:
Like, that would be truly fell.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:21]:
Truly fell in love. Like, I. If you are out there and you're listening to this, I am like, send me an email. I would love to hear that story.
Jay Sheldon [00:32:29]:
Yeah, I don't know what that's about.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:30]:
Yeah, I would love to understand because I. I think it's. It's really hard for me to imagine knowing that someone is capable of killing nine peop. At least nine people in cold blood, and then just being like, I think I'll marry you because there's not any, like, financial gain that you're getting out of it.
Jay Sheldon [00:32:51]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:51]:
Person's in prison, they have no assets.
Jay Sheldon [00:32:54]:
But was he also very charismatic? I mean, it was in a time where you couldn't just look him up on Facebook. So.
Marnie Vinge [00:32:59]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:32:59]:
Maybe he was able to just say no. I mean, I'm falsely accused. Yeah, you just tell a good story.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:05]:
Right? Maybe so. I mean it does seem kind of charismatic that he decided he was going to call and say, I know two of those people but not the other one.
Jay Sheldon [00:33:13]:
Yeah. Like so much confidence.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:15]:
Very much confidence. Yeah. And one of the things that he said was he believed that he would not be executed. He didn't think it would ever happen because he was quote, too good looking.
Jay Sheldon [00:33:28]:
And we all know they don't, they don't execute good looking prisoners.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:31]:
That's right. That's right. Good looking. Like that good looking guy, the hot fella.
Jay Sheldon [00:33:36]:
Yes. Which we find out what he did.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:38]:
Yes. He went on to become a model.
Jay Sheldon [00:33:40]:
That's right. But what was his crime? It wasn't anything. It wasn't murder?
Marnie Vinge [00:33:44]:
No, it wasn't murder. I think it was drug related maybe or like some kind of petty theft, something.
Jay Sheldon [00:33:52]:
His photo went viral.
Marnie Vinge [00:33:53]:
Yeah, it did. He had those piercing eyes and just like looked better than anybody should look in a mug shot to begin with. Like he was good looking.
Jay Sheldon [00:34:00]:
He was ready for the mug shot.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:01]:
He was ready for that mug shot. Like sometimes you see people's mug shots and you're like, you have obviously just had a really rough night and you look like it's been rough and maybe like every night before that was also rough. But like sometimes you see people that just like look like they've been waiting their entire life for this moment.
Jay Sheldon [00:34:22]:
Yes. And they're like out that night hoping to be arrested.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:25]:
Yeah. And you're like, maybe tonight's the night.
Jay Sheldon [00:34:27]:
Or he took one for a friend. Like don't arrest them.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:30]:
Yeah, exactly. It was me.
Jay Sheldon [00:34:33]:
Yeah, I did it. Officer.
Marnie Vinge [00:34:36]:
Right. So on October 17, 1979, Roger Dale Stafford was convicted of murder and was sentenced to death. Later on March 7, 1980, he was convicted in the Lorenz killings and sentenced to death again. I believe that he actually got nine total sentencings or something like that for the nine people that they know of that died. And he was scheduled to be executed for the Laurens killings on April 2, 1984. Fifteen hours before the execution, he won a delay from the U.S. supreme Court. So he got a little bit of extra time.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:19]:
And then finally, I don't know, I didn't, I didn't look into that. I should have looked into that. But I don't know why they do that. Like why, why you get a stay of execution. I don't know exactly what that process.
Jay Sheldon [00:35:31]:
I feel like, it's got to be harder now. Although executions, even now, it takes forever.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:36]:
Well, and also, like, Oklahoma kind of pumped the brakes, like, after those two guys.
Jay Sheldon [00:35:41]:
Yeah.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:41]:
The botched execution.
Jay Sheldon [00:35:42]:
I have.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:43]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:35:44]:
I especially. As I get older, I think I don't like the idea of execution.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:49]:
Right.
Jay Sheldon [00:35:50]:
Because there's so many people falsely convicted.
Marnie Vinge [00:35:52]:
Yeah. I think. Yeah, I agree. I think it's. Yeah. The older I get, the more I'm like, just. If someone's really, truly did, like, something really awful, just let them rot in jail.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:05]:
Yeah. Do we really get anything out of killing them anyway?
Marnie Vinge [00:36:07]:
Right. Like, let them be miserable. Let them live a miserable life knowing that they'll never get out.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:12]:
To me, that sounds worse.
Marnie Vinge [00:36:13]:
That sounds way worse.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:13]:
I'd rather die if I was in prison.
Marnie Vinge [00:36:15]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, especially if you knew that there was no chance that you were ever getting out. Especially if you were young, like, and you've done something horrible. Like, you're in your 20s, 30s, and you've got, like, 40, 50, maybe 60 years ahead of you.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:28]:
Like, but prison's its own world, too. People figure out how to make that work.
Marnie Vinge [00:36:32]:
That is so true.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:33]:
Things they want, they live, like, this cushy life.
Marnie Vinge [00:36:35]:
Yeah. That is so true. And, like, that reminds me of, like, in the Shawshank Redemption when that one guy gets out of prison and he can't find work and he kills himself, and it's so sad.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:45]:
Like, ends up missing that life and his friends and.
Marnie Vinge [00:36:48]:
Yeah. I mean, and you hear about people all the time who, like the recidivism rate. Like, they. They commit another crime to go back to prison, because that's the only world.
Jay Sheldon [00:36:56]:
They know, and they don't really rehabilitate. Rehabilitate? You go into the world.
Marnie Vinge [00:37:00]:
Oh, there's so many problems with the prison system in the United States. It's like, that could be a whole episode of its own.
Jay Sheldon [00:37:06]:
It'd be a whole eight hours.
Marnie Vinge [00:37:07]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, it could. So finally, on May 30, 1995, he gets notification that he will be executed in 30 days. He is advised to make arrangements. So, like, this. This really intrigues me because I'm like, I did not know that they, like, come to you 30 days before you're gonna be executed, and they're like, okay, you got 30 days.
Jay Sheldon [00:37:32]:
Would you rather him come to you day of, though? Today's the day.
Marnie Vinge [00:37:36]:
I don't know. I think that might be worse. I don't know.
Jay Sheldon [00:37:39]:
Maybe day before, maybe, like, no, because you need.
Marnie Vinge [00:37:43]:
You need time to prepare for, like.
Jay Sheldon [00:37:45]:
Prepare for the fact that you're gonna die.
Marnie Vinge [00:37:47]:
Yeah, exactly. Like, you need. And I like, because I know that in. I think maybe in, like, China or somewhere, they don't tell you. They just come get you. Like, when. When it's time.
Jay Sheldon [00:38:00]:
And, like, time you heard footsteps, you think, is this.
Marnie Vinge [00:38:04]:
Which. Which I almost, like, kind of feel like if we're. If we are gonna go all in on the death penalty and these people are that awful. Like, I mean, that's the way to really punish someone is like, if they're. If they. Every time they hear footsteps, they don't know if it's gonna be them.
Jay Sheldon [00:38:19]:
It's true.
Marnie Vinge [00:38:20]:
Like, so I can kind of see the logic behind it. But, I mean, I guess they. They were like, okay, you got 30 days. Get your affairs in order. Which I don't know, like, what? All he would have to get in order. But then, so July 1st rolls around, and he is executed by the state of Oklahoma by means of lethal injection. And as the chemicals poured into his veins, he said, oh, God. Among his last words were, tell the world you are seeing an innocent man murdered.
Marnie Vinge [00:38:50]:
I've got nothing to lose by telling a lie. Someone, somewhere, somehow, please exonerate me. He also said to his wife, mickey, I love you, Mickey. You meet me at heaven's gate.
Jay Sheldon [00:39:03]:
What a weird man.
Marnie Vinge [00:39:05]:
Yeah. Like, what a jerk to be. Like saying. Right. Like saying that he did not do this to the very last moment.
Jay Sheldon [00:39:14]:
Yeah. Where's the thinking in that?
Marnie Vinge [00:39:17]:
Right? And, like, also, it indicates that he feels like he did nothing wrong.
Jay Sheldon [00:39:22]:
That's true.
Marnie Vinge [00:39:23]:
Like, he doesn't feel any kind of.
Jay Sheldon [00:39:26]:
Guilt, remorse, or maybe he doesn't have the memory of doing it.
Marnie Vinge [00:39:29]:
Maybe not. Maybe he did. So Mickey proclaimed her love for Roger during his execution. She repeatedly told him she loved him during the eight minutes that it took to end his life. Hallelujah, you're going to meet the Lord today, is what she said as he finally went limp. And this is one of the creepiest things about this case. Less than two weeks after Roger's execution, the Assistant Attorney General, Sandy Howard, received in the mail a sirloin stockade gift card for the amount of $5. It was from Roger.
Marnie Vinge [00:40:08]:
Inside it read, hey, you got away with it. I am murder, and you help do it. Which, that's kind of grammatically incorrect, but then it said, I am innocent, and you know it. And it was signed Roger Dale Stafford with his inmate number. It came from the sirloin stockade in El Reno and had been mailed on July 3rd, two days after the execution from the prison in McAllister. So I guess that was the affair. He needed to get in order before, like, he died. He needed to have one of his buddies in prison.
Marnie Vinge [00:40:39]:
He was like, hey, you gotta hook me up. You gotta send this to the assistant attorney general after I die. Really creep him out. Like, I think that would be. That would be kind of. That would be a little like disconcerting to get a gift card from a serial spree killer type person that is dead now. That's dead. Like just.
Marnie Vinge [00:41:03]:
It's just like one more little jab to be like the joke's on you.
Jay Sheldon [00:41:08]:
Kind of a thing and stuff like that. That would make me go, I don't need this job.
Marnie Vinge [00:41:12]:
Yeah, exactly. Oh, I think. I think there are so many jobs that are in like the criminal justice system, like from law enforcement to like defense attorneys. Like, I don't know how you would do some of those jobs and not just absolutely lose it.
Jay Sheldon [00:41:30]:
Yeah. I think the. The new season of cereal.
Marnie Vinge [00:41:33]:
Mm.
Jay Sheldon [00:41:33]:
Is about the court system, really. I've listened to some of those episodes and thought, I don't know how they could do that every day.
Marnie Vinge [00:41:40]:
Yeah.
Jay Sheldon [00:41:40]:
Sounds terrible.
Marnie Vinge [00:41:41]:
I don't know how you would be a defense attorney who gets, like, assigned to people that, you know are like cold blooded killers. And you've got to figure out a way to present them fairly and unbiased and like be on their. Be in their corner kind of. And, you know, I think that would be so hard.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:02]:
If you're private practice, then you get.
Marnie Vinge [00:42:05]:
To do whatever you want.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:05]:
Yeah. But if you're a public defender. Oh.
Marnie Vinge [00:42:07]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That would. I think that would be really hard. And I would also like to know what would make someone want to do that.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:18]:
Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I've actually seen a documentary. I'm trying to think what their answer was. I think they want to help. They want to defend their. The innocence and. But it's just such a difficult job where there's not enough pay and you're.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:32]:
I believe most of the cases get settled.
Marnie Vinge [00:42:34]:
Yeah, they're.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:35]:
Please. And so you don't really get to do the job that maybe you thought you were signing up for.
Marnie Vinge [00:42:40]:
Oh, man.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:42]:
To really defend.
Marnie Vinge [00:42:43]:
That's a lot of school to go through to find out, like, at the end. This isn't what I thought it was.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:48]:
Yeah. Like, here, take the deal. I got 10 more cases a day. I gotta get through this.
Marnie Vinge [00:42:53]:
Oh, man, it's. Yeah, it's. It's definitely like there are Problems. Big problems.
Jay Sheldon [00:42:59]:
Yeah. So just don't get in trouble.
Marnie Vinge [00:43:00]:
Yeah. Just don't. Don't act on those dark thoughts that you got, people. Just be good. Behave yourselves. Be good. Like. Yeah, so that's about it for Roger Dale Stafford.
Marnie Vinge [00:43:13]:
He was a monster, man. And I feel like that case kind of changed Oklahoma in a way. I mean, it was probably the first time. It really was the first time that anything like that ever happened here. And.
Jay Sheldon [00:43:30]:
Yeah, it's like if it's the same as if you live in this small town, this Pleasantville type town, something like that happens. Like, how can you ever be the same?
Marnie Vinge [00:43:40]:
Yeah, you can't. You can't. So. So. So, yeah, that's about it. Do you have any. Anything you want to plug, like your Instagram for the podcast or anything like that?
Jay Sheldon [00:43:54]:
The Instagram is just miscellaneous important stuff. The podcast is also miscellaneous important stuff. And you can listen to it anywhere that podcasts are played or. Streamed.
Marnie Vinge [00:44:06]:
Yes. Awesome. Awesome. Well, okay, so you guys subscribe. Follow us on Instagram @eerieokie or on Facebook @eerieokie. And if you have any. Let's see, what did we. What do we ask for? An email about.
Jay Sheldon [00:44:26]:
Your own story or a story you know, of, like Eerie.
Marnie Vinge [00:44:30]:
Yeah, anything like that. And there was something specific in this episode. Whatever it was, you just listen to it. So you know, and I don't because I have a bad memory.
Jay Sheldon [00:44:39]:
So.
Marnie Vinge [00:44:39]:
But email us eerieokipodcast@gmail.com so that's it for this episode. See you later.
Jay Sheldon [00:44:48]:
Bye.